We’re joined, over two episodes first published in August 2021, by highly accomplished filmmaker, author and podcaster, Oliver Crocker. With well over 300 000 listens as of January 2023, Oliver’s ongoing project, The Bill Podcast, is loved not only by fans of the iconic ITV police show (2500 episodes, 1983-2010), but also by the artists and crew behind it. He has written two very well-received companion books, Witness Statements: Making The Bill Series 1-3, and Making The Bill 1988, and has also applied his forensic research and outstanding interviewing skills to another legendary British television classic, with All Memories Great and Small.
Oliver is now undoubtedly one of the leading writers, commentators and historians of British television, enjoying huge success with his podcast series, Patreon subscription platform and highly acclaimed books.
In the first episode Oliver talks about his passion for The Bill and those who brought it to us, and shares some fascinating behind-the-scenes insights into the making of the series, the researching and writing of the first Witness Statements, the art of the interview, and lots more.
In part two, Oliver talks us through adventures in guerrilla indie filmmaking, Dad’s Army, and some memorable and poignant encounters with authentic legends of British television.
(These episodes were recorded prior to the release of Oliver’s second book on The Bill – Witness Statements: Making The Bill 1988, and before the sad passing of Oliver’s friend, Dad’s Army legend Frank Williams, who passed away June 26th, 2022, aged 90, and about whom Oliver reminisces so fondly).
Companion Newsletter
Having interviewed many of the actors and key creative talent behind The Bill, in over 100 podcast episodes (at the time of this edition), additional subscriber content, and for two volumes of Witness Statements, Oliver is able to give us some fascinating insights into the making of the show throughout its 27 year run. He generously shares many of those insights with us, including securing the very first interview for the podcast, with key actor from the early years, Jon Iles (DC Mike Dashwood).
We find out about the unique perspectives of some of the prominent writers of The Bill, including Barry Appleton, who was also technical adviser, and who based storylines on his personal experience as a police officer. We also explore the often fraught relationship between actor and producer, and discuss the role of the producer more generally, for better or worse, thanks in part to some insights gleaned from Oliver’s interviews with Jon Iles, Larry Dann (Sgt Alec Peters) and Andrew Mackintosh (DS Alastair Greig).
Comments from producer Tony Garnett (1936-2020) (Cathy Come Home, Kes, This Life) from the BBC’s Hardtalk programme, about the general treatment of actors, even those well established, seem particularly pertinent. (There’s more on Tony Garnett, including a link to the complete Hardtalk interview, in the research notes below).
We also take a little diversion into a previous long running police drama, Z- Cars (801 episodes 1962-1978), continuing with the on vs off-camera dynamic. Z-Cars began during a time when studio segments were performed and broadcast live, and contributing writer Alan Plater (A Very British Coup, Fortunes of War), in a 1989 interview with the BBC’s Desert Island Discs, recalled all kinds of disasters, like equipment malfunctions meaning that filmed exterior segments would not cut in on cue, and one memorable occasion when a door was opened in a studio set to reveal cameras taking up position for the next shot. In the context of changing times, we look at the evolution of police drama, and how both Britain and the audience might have changed between Dixon of Dock Green, Z-Cars, The Sweeney, and then The Bill which found its early success in the 1980s of Margaret Thatcher.
Oliver also talks us through the tricky and at times nerve-wracking process of securing key interviews, such as John Salthouse (DI Roy Galloway), and the importance of gaining and then honouring the trust of the interviewee to get the best results. We also recall John Salthouse’s unforgettable, intense performance in one of the most watched and acclaimed television plays of all, Mike Leigh’s Abigail’s Party (1977), of which a significant part was improvised. The complete play is available on YouTube, link here.
There’s also a fascinating anecdote about Oliver’s conversation with Robert Hardy (Siegfried Farnon), for All Memories Great and Small, which emphasises just how much preparation and research can make a difference to a key interview.
Along with John Salthouse’s DI Galloway, one of the characters that shaped The Bill in its formative years was DS Ted Roach, played by Tony Scannell (1945-2020), in 237 episodes. Just one of many highlights to be found in The Bill Podcast’s catalogue is this tribute episode.
Oliver discusses some of the changes in The Bill over its 27 year run, some well received, some not, and in this context, one of the more enlightening interviews in The Bill Podcast catalogue is with Todd Carty, who played PC Gabriel Kent and was part of a polarising storyline with Trudie Goodwin’s June Ackland. Todd’s interview gives us a much better understanding of the acting challenges that arise from an extended and confronting storyline.
The Bill Podcast Episode 43: Todd Carty
One actor we mention only fleetingly is Philip Whitchurch ( Chief Inspector Cato) who created another legendary character, Captain ‘Sweet William’ Frederickson, in Sharpe.
One of many memorable Frederickson moments involved Sergeant Harper (Daragh O’Malley), a terrible toothache, a horrendous pair of pincers and some detailed instructions on improvised, battlefield dentistry. You can see that eye-watering scene thanks to the official Sharpe YouTube channel, here.
There are so many legends of The Bill we didn’t mention in this conversation with Oliver, but there’s a very good chance your favourite will already be in The Bill Podcast’s extensive back catalogue. Or may well appear in the future!
In our second episode we shift our focus from Oliver’s work relating to The Bill, and talk more broadly about his career to date, including his early experiences in guerrilla indie film making. You’ll find background information, cast details, and production notes and photos at the IMDb pages for Oliver’s productions of Tanner (2007), Murder by Appointment (2009), and Extended Rest (2014).
Prolific television director Mervyn Cumming played a pivotal role in Oliver’s life and career, as did late actor Ian Cullen, whom we discussed in more detail in the context of his Z-Cars career in our first episode. Oliver shares some wonderful personal anecdotes about working with these two talented professionals, also Mervyn Cumming’s contribution to the famously chaotic, short-lived and disastrously scripted BBC soap, El Dorado, a rare mis-step for producer Verity Lambert, who otherwise had great success as a pioneering producer of Doctor Who, and during a golden run for Thames Television / Euston Films.
We spend a significant part of this episode discussing Oliver’s friendship with, and the fascinating career of, playwright and actor Frank Williams. Oliver’s short film biography, Dad’s Army and Beyond: The Frank Williams Story, also directed by Mervyn Cumming, was screened at the National Film Theatre (BFI) as part of the official 40th Anniversary celebrations for Dad’s Army in 2008. You can watch the full documentary here, courtesy of Oliver’s YouTube channel. It really is essential viewing for serious Dad’s Army fans, and there is some wonderful candid footage of the cast having great fun while on tour for the stage production in 1976. Frank Williams passed away June 26th, 2022, aged 90.
Frank Williams won lasting fame for his portrayal of Timothy Farthing, the vicar in Dad’s Army, and although actually featuring in only half of the 80 episodes, made such an impression that it’s easy to imagine he was prominent in each one. He had previously appeared as Captain Pocket in The Army Game, and later in Croft and Perry’s You Rang, M’Lord, amongst a number of other film, television and stage credits. He was also a successful playwright. Some information about his plays can be found at the UK website of stage scripts.
Oliver also shares with us memorable and at times poignant encounters with some authentic television legends, including Bill Pertwee, Philip Madoc, Pamela Cundell and Paul Shane.
Although Dad’s Army was played largely for laughs, writers Jimmy Perry and David Croft frequently reminded us of the frightening reality behind the comedy, even in the final episode when the platoon was mobilised following an invasion alert. According to the Imperial War Museum, by July of 1940, nearly 1.5 million men and boys aged 17-65 had enrolled in the Local Defence Volunteers, which was then renamed the Home Guard. Over the course of the war, 1,206 members were killed by direct enemy action.
Oliver explains how he was engaged to produce the DVD extras for the 2016 Dad’s Army feature film, starring Catherine Zeta-Jones, Toby Jones (Captain Mainwaring), Bill Nighy (Sergeant Wilson), Michael Gambon (Private Godfrey), and Alison Steadman (Mrs Fox). Frank Williams reprised his role as the Vicar, and received a standing ovation from the other cast members when he arrived on set. It seems that Catherine Zeta-Jones is quite a fan of the Vicar as well!
We allude very briefly to the Dad’s Army Podcast, to which Oliver, Frank Williams and Mervyn Cumming contributed. Although no longer being updated, there are over 80 episodes to explore, including commentaries and production insights on some favourite episodes and the original 1971 movie with Frank Williams; a fascinating interview with Nicolas Ridley (son of war-hero, playwright and actor Arnold Ridley who played Private Godfrey), Dad’s Army events featuring cast members as well as Jimmy Perry and David Croft, and lots more as well. Link to the episodes on Apple /iTunes.
We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Oliver. Huge thanks to Oliver himself, to Steve Collins for technical support, and to Gainesville for our theme music.
Sample Clips
Research Notes and Suggested Further Reading, Viewing and Listening
One of the behind-the-scenes insights into The Bill Oliver shared with us, was the fact that on more than one occasion, entire episodes would be reshot if, for whatever reason, the episode was not up to standard or a guest actor proved to be unsuitable. Here’s a little more background on The Negotiator, which was recast and reshot with Roger Lloyd-Pack as the principal guest;
Re-Casting The Negotiator with director Stuart Urban
Ben Peyton played a key role in the creation of the The Bill Podcast, and was the second interviewee, following Jon Iles. He played PC Ben Heyward in 55 episodes from 2000 to 2002. He is currently a film writer and author, and you can link to his podcast interview here;
Ben Peyton Interview – The Bill Podcast
Oliver credits Toby Hadoke as an influence on his interviewing style – link to Toby’s website at www.tobyhadoke.com
Oliver’s interview with Ian Cullen for the Z-Cars DVD Extras;
Find Oliver’s books, Witness Statements: Making the Bill Series 1 -3, Making The Bill 1988, and the new edition of All Memories Great and Small at Devonfire Books.
Oliver’s YouTube channel; https://www.youtube.com/@TheBillPodcast
Bill Pertwee has written a number of books, including Dad’s Army: The Making of a Television Legend, an autobiography, as well as histories of forces entertainment and variety.
Another recommended read for Dad’s Army buffs is Graham McCann’s Dads Army: The Story of a Classic Television Show.
Other relevant memoirs are from Frank Williams himself with Chris Gidney (Vicar to Dad’s Army: The Frank Williams Story), Clive Dunn (Permission to Speak) and John Le Mesurier (A Jobbing Actor). Nicolas Ridley’s biographical memoir about his father Arnold is Godfrey’s Ghost: From Father to Son.
Other than those already mentioned, Tony Garnett’s credits included classic working-class and socially conscious television drama including The Price of Coal and Days of Hope, and for the cinema, Kes (1969), directed by Ken Loach, which fellow filmmaker Michael Apted once described as the finest British film since the war. Both Ken Loach and Tony Garnett did not attempt to moderate regional dialect, to the point where United Artists wanted to subtitle Kes for US distribution. Tony Garnett was also credited as story editor on Up The Junction (BBC Wednesday Play 1965), which graphically confronted the issue of ‘backstreet abortions’, which actually mirrored Tony Garnett’s own traumatic family experience.
Find the complete Hardtalk interview with Tony Garnett here. The accounts of his early life are quite harrowing, and it’s a fascinating look at one of the great talents of all in post-war British cinema and television, and how his life experiences informed some of his most acclaimed work. (Thanks to BBC World Service)(https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csy990
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